030: An act of God

In this episode we’re joined by our friend Tom, aka @x5315. Tom co-created Twitterfall with Jalada back in 2009.

To follow up from Episode 25 where Jalada talked about building Twitterfall, Tom is here to tell us the story from his point of view, and what he’s up to now.

The whiteboard of features in Tom’s university dorm room:

Intro/outro music: JACKS – Runaway Fashion

Auto-generated transcription follows.

following up from episode twenty five we are joined by Tom Brearley aka ex five three one five X. five was the other half of twitterfall back in two thousand and nine and in this episode he tells the story of its creation and developments from his point of view and how it’s affected his life and career since hello and welcome to another episode of also left them I’m Salada and I’m Severin and today we are also joined spy home really who’s also at ex five three one five would you like to be ex five will explore three or five will toll move you’re going to convert hello everyone credits if you close your mind back listeners to episode twenty five where we talked about it’s with a full %HESITATION you will remember the name Tom Brady because he will is the co author right Sir Ulf co founder of twits Afula ands we recorded that episodes and then it’s home message me obviously on Twitter being like I mean you could have asked me to come on how difficult about what’s good for %HESITATION which was a really good point so we think it’s a follow up episodes to talk a little bit more about sits in about story from your point of view I think is really interesting and in fact maybe that is where we should starts with how you know I took that as in the previous episode about like macworld and how I am what I remember about likes why I started building it and stuff like that and I touched on your messaging you and asking you for help and stuff like that but what do you sort of remember about those early days have of how we started yeah so I am but I think when you first message me and I like help to come up with the design which I think of the time used a bunch of like transparent gifs yes was totally not performance is terrible it was like online all really fast laptop it would just scroll wheel just late yeah and so it went from there and then I think we realized after the macro thing after we got like a little thing like losing a few hundred views or something like that we kind of realized maybe we should keep going with this like we wanna build our own things and used whether with and I kind of thing and so I guess we just started adding features unlike exit as you mentioned it before it began with just the trends I’m I’m and we were like when they be cool if you could have custom searches then we would have to work out how to do that islands looking back on it I think it snowballed very quickly I think it turned from like this little tiny thing into this is what we were doing every night and every weekend yeah I remember like I had a white gold in my effectively going room and it was just like okay when we have this feature why don’t we have this speech that when we have with each I member who has a megaphone went down to the telegraph that was interesting reading now like last time anything like that and well yeah really happened to me anon I guess some that you know we would show up and blog posts like about like top twenty five trailer apps that you should be using now I’m like we kept adding features and adding features not impeach I think one of the things about back in those days was that kind of sense of featured creation in future development across all of the Twitter yeah I know it was a very thriving Twitter client ecosystem that we don assembly house today and I think a lot of them were adding features the other people just didn’t happen another really pregnant paces well I like it like everything move yeah he really quickly and it was called it was yeah it was almost like a a race you know like you can add this you can do that he can do that yeah I actually I think I remember when tricks added the ability to post geo am I and we had a working version within like an hour where I had like somehow patched together a working version of Google maps with football and then not allowed you to like only search within a certain area things like that and it was this it’s very rapid thing well our students Twitter announced a new feature we would go on like try and building and other new thing yeah things like that and I think some of the things that we bill as well now looking back at them what kind of very obvious but it’s interesting that we never came to the same conclusions and say like what’s that yeah so for example like image previews was a thing where I think you mention this before you can like call grosgrain image link and we will show you the preview of the image only while you hobbit over yeah wears like you look at what’s in now and it’s like seem like the timeline is just the media’s images everywhere yeah I think that’s in his name like we got it around like I guess two types of you think of the time she’s like plain keyword meeting which I was the trainers hired as I did mouths public if you set something like that and then we also allow people to mu apps yes we did it’s another is because you have those like also posting things and that was like a such a huge trend on Twitter was that people would have something sets up the altar share alike ball square yeah like foursquare check ins and unfit for school was the main one wasn’t it like every once we have that check ins in full square and it would flood your time line and it was so annoying and so we added the we have the ability where you could be like do not show me tweeds posted from full square yeah and then when like businesses started contacting us and be like Hey we won truthful on our website we want to a full blown here whether that was the telegraph pole I think we did like what for I. T. V. I know we were trying to Google at one point policy would it work for like and TV and the fox thing you mentioned previously another well other random websites yeah I do I remember it now ago some website that didn’t really want anything to do with threats of which wanted life comments yeah I remember that those yeah and it was just like what you kind of did something live in real time and and yeah once it but for our own comments on our website not fit with the right and so for example like me did crap yeah but like looking back on it I mean I I you know I think you mean we we’ve talked about this the fault like we were two students who did not know how to set up and run a business yes and so we did this work for no money yeah and so also to some extent I don’t think we did necessarily a very professional job yeah you know I mean like it was just fumes kind of playing yeah with technology and so we kind of millions a little bit of money wasn’t allowed most of it was donations someone like a little bit here and that kind of these companies and we made enough money I’m an Twitter announced its our developer conference yet is going to be like a potato content and I think we both talked about and I was like I’ll go to that you know when are you looking back on it there was no real neat because of that it was kind of like I think that conference was whether announced that they have what we feel like it was it was announced that they had bought treaty the night before the conference yeah and so that conference to some extent was more panic amongst app developers being like here we go everything’s over no more fun now and I think there’s a lot of that kind of thing so I’m going to that I was told to interesting they announce things like promoted tweets and such how they were gonna do like annotations and in a few members so it was like who yeah I feature where you could like at any **** data to which we have something that I know about that is that would actually fully implemented and then that a ship like a big finish that and never hear well it was interesting meeting a lot of these people who like we need only ever interacted either by the phone all like I am or yams or email American thing gutting the nephew times what we have to interact with which I just wanna wanted people to work on Twitter related things for companies and they would come to us so it was interesting reading meadows and while while I was that you know they were very much like you know we should probably hire you guys but I remember you and I used to joke like if someone offered as fifty thousand dollars we take it when we just like salad right and we always I like calmly just bias that ten million I like a little pet project and it’s I don’t think acquisition was ever on the products that we would never talk about interviewing us and I remember my flight home was supposed to be on the Saturday on the Friday I got an email from the head of recruits and there was like Hey let me know when you go back to the UK and we can try and like what how how we gonna into you guys all that kind of thing and then what happened was my flight got canceled because an earthquake erupted all eyes and ones like color and acts of god I’m not saying necessarily it’s an active government working for the but there we go path I’m back on Monday I think over the weekend I got a I DMI think you’re some Kevin will is now the VP of product Instagram interestingly Amazon and he was just like coming out in the office this recruit free drinks free wifi summonses closer ridiculously expensive place now we’ll save money we know you’re trapped and I went and on Monday I emailed recruits and I was like Hey I know we talked about like when I get back you Cape like ikea on then that you stand the Wednesday they interviewed me Thursday I think I flew home and I think I got like that weekend I think I got I got a job offer maybe Monday or maybe like well that’s really wrapped its like for America I can’t imagine that the hiring process it’s with the is now as rapid as it was but then I just absolutely not like those crazy they must’ve been really desperate to hire that I didn’t write the thing because I got to come up and negative what I mean is like to move so quickly on hiring yeah I know it’s kind of like you like they want to move really fast it’s not so much that that desperate it’s just that it’s like there’s nothing holding them back is not like you know this knowledge of things that they need to sort out with the other men them moving them to make it work to turn something around in a week %HESITATION is a heresy I mean I think everything from my perspective as well as up like I think it because of the limits of time aspect of it like I think they just threw an interview panel together one of the interesting things about that now is that no one who interviewed me still works at it dies I I’ve listening to I know what it was of the sentence nearly yeah originally I start hunter contracting from the UK once I graduated and then I move to some of us go in November this nearly seven years now so no one I who interviewed me works at treasury walk in tons of tenure I’m I’m I’m rambling number eighteen in the company the company of like several thousand people I’m like yeah neatness tenure to employee like us pretty incredible couldn’t that’s pretty crazy isn’t well yeah but I I look back on building critical and the thing I really think about a lot is just how we have to do everything from scratch yeah yet so we we were talking about this ride like before just before we started recording I think it’s really interesting that that’s the kind of thing that you remember versus the things that I remember that you know when we were talking about in the previous episode I talked a lot about the work that we did it’s and sort of what it led to and some of the stories I remember about those kinds of things because for me that was that’s what I remember because that’s what relates to me now you know the work that I do now and where I am now and if the circles that I continue to move in was very much related to this those early days of Twitter full where is for you it’s kind of like the acts of actually buildings with a full and doing that work is what ended up being the kind of starting point for you rather than the things that we got to do and the people that we spoke to you short of the fact that you went to the developer conference but it’s kind of like that that process I think you could even happened even if you hadn’t gone so that right like I think you probably would have spoken to Twitter about working for them and that was kind of that that you know you that would have been your inevitable thought process yeah yeah I like what what looked over the things kinds of things we were talking about the we have to do our souls is really interesting so I mean I think what one thing well I mean we’re talking about web technology back in two thousand right like two thousand and two thousand and I remember I you want to deploy Java script cool calm canning or you just heard falls together and then clothing to a seller yeah right please note like we didn’t have a CD and there was no build process that Java script yeah we we spent a bunch a time just like optimizing ridiculous things in Java script about men like to be able to optimize then you have got to measure them so we have to build ways of measuring how we would optimize well like the code we had a I mean like how will you build the I mean sort of little home grown benchmarking tool that let us take two pieces of code and say which one is the foster one for what we want to do now you would all of that knowledge is known and also it doesn’t matter as much because performance is so much better that you don’t need to optimize these tiny things you now need to optimize much larger things respect then it was like if we have a big string and we need to put it together and add stuff to it what’s the fastest way doing and now you would even get that affords right my Java script is I think that’s Curtis traveled so far and like decade it’s it’s in this country pretty incredible I know we have to do things like user research yeah so we wanted to know which uses a using which settings because I think one of things that did happen was we just kept adding features he was just like the chapter beach after feature feature an army without setting up the setting up of the thing and we ended up in this place where I come in how many options that must have been but we just had like eight different options each year which had like four different settings yeah I am we were like I wonder if anyone actually uses any of these because sometimes it requires us to know like all day long eight thousand instead of two thousand that we need to run this the coat differently and so we have the building like user research thing it would tell is when people change settings on what sets in for use to think like that overwhelmingly it showed that like no one use and that’s it yeah everyone just kept the defaults ends right is like one thing that people it’s pretty interesting to hear you guys say like you pretty wishes wants to carry on building features like that so like whether the passion walls lately which is costly adding to the products are looking back at it would you maybe if like almost made the base product differently would you have like soap implements in a different way or maybe like in all bothered to some things or man that’s a good question it just sounds like he kept during speaks against wall to see what kind of Stoke I don’t let you with hindsight night what what did sick in what we like widely throughout the first place correct me if I’m wrong home I think part of it was like we would get a lot of requests for features and a lot of Pete you know a lot of users with wood Oscars for things and because we was so new to all of this and we have no idea what to do it was kind of like if one person asked us to add something we would add it yet but that’s great and now it’s like that we know that that’s a terrible way to design sofa in a budget building everything that you would uses wants yeah I but as for like things I would do differently I don’t know what you think I think one thing about I was building it today is that the world we would build in today’s very different to the Welsh repulsive enough time I’m one of things I think you mentioned in the last episode about this was that when we first started you could read the top ten all the tweets about the top ten trends I’m just happy that I’m going all the time that is that the telegraph did write that was that was what I had on that on that project right and I’m not was fine and you could read every tweet and you would know what was going on I remember are the nine Michael Jackson died it showed up on Twitter trends like sorghum streets around it I went to BBC news nothing yeah and I I remember I went I think I went to like the corner shop well after I found that out who just like no one else knows this yet I’m right like but things like that wears a thing now we would like if we were rebuilding it today we would never have the emphasis on the trends that we had yeah background I think this probably a few ways that we would re implement things looking him what exists now but I think the most part it was a it was a very organic growth of the product yeah I guess it did we really have any kind of idea of direction with what we were doing was truthful or did we just kind of like doing it it was just kinda like we build stuff so so I think one philosophical thing that we when we arrive at this moment now was that we saw ourselves as like the antithesis of TweetDeck yeah where is TweetDeck believed in separating everything into multiple streams aren’t you just talk to watch multiple C. stream simultaneously we saw ourselves as no there should be a single stream yeah and everything should just flow into yeah you know everything she just flowed down with little well I’m very good nice why do we boxing it I think that was the philosophy and so since I was about how do we get more things into the central theme loon but it was no real product philosophy I don’t know we now obviously came later like how do we recently finished the product as it is today yeah and I guess kind of the coal aspects of what it was didn’t really change like the cool bit of the product was the fact that it was it with the full you know like stuff like exactly like you say like stuff salted let’s hope and moved its way down and it was kind of like that was the central point and at the time and this is something you brought up which I think is really interesting that works really well versus TweetDeck for getting people to understand Twitter because tweet that there’s such a huge barrier to understanding Twitter by using TweetDeck and at the time there was also a massive parrots understanding Twitter by using Twitter dot com because the onboarding process was bad something that is still you know up call a nose as a core focus of like you know signing people up to Twitter and retaining them and you know getting them to understand what it is at the time no one knew what with tools like no one even people who can new office with a didn’t know what it was and I think that’s what’s a fool was a huge parts of helping people generally understands what’s with animals I think it’s definitely an aspect to I’m like that the default version of our product but so long well as you go to try to follow com and treat stop pulling down the page exactly yeah and immediately you knew like you could you could kind of all these people are talking about these things yeah I’m plate that showed you always people talking about things yeah where was I think a lot of especially the early Twitter on boarding process to date someone process was very much okay sign up cool now you go you’re in August he’s our anti timeline yeah good luck with that yet I find people to follow like he like maybe five people you maybe neither right and I think that to some extent pushing people and showing them what which was about very early kind of let’s look pretty good initial kind of viewing of what looked like twelve that product yeah uns Sir going back to like joining Switzer and being hired by them and stuff like that did people know about with a full when you joins like that people’s that way if you introduce yourself and you said like what you Donald something like that like to people know you I’m some people that some people didn’t know it was interesting so like remember actually when I was in San Francisco and I said who I was to add Williams who is the CEO of the time and he was like all cool and he obviously had no idea what I’m talking about so then especially when I move to San Francisco I would walk around the office and occasionally I would see it so I like which will just be on a screen in the office searching for fail well or whatever so that they would know what people were seeing more fail whale than normal all that would be in a band and occasionally people would put two and two together and realize that was me yeah that was that was very interesting because I was to some extent like what user research when you go in like qualitative user research where you actually see people using the product yeah and I like %HESITATION why do they never double click this thing why do they not well into text at the top why do they never knew that like we I did that option two years ago why don’t we use it and then yeah and things like that thing that was very interesting I’m sorry to stand like how like seeing people use the product that you build yeah I think that’s made extra cool from the fact that it wasn’t built from a business point of views bill from up you know passion like something you enjoy doing like he didn’t go ahead and be contracted by someone to do this and then you walk around you knew joke which is the help to get five thought you great this seeing people use this could be pretty cool filling yeah I I grew I think one of the things that was actually very interesting was the fact that we were never really a business so I when I tell people to store the story often times they’ll remember as you and I gonna stop yeah which is not true yeah you and I made a website yeah I’m people wanted to give his money yeah so we may need a company yeah we want encore we set up a company by going to the bank we like so people want to give us money and we probably should put it somewhere and it probably needs to not be your bank account of my back right exactly and also that these people would find it really with it if you’re paying one of us like it’s like why you know like they wanted to be paying up company not the person yeah I’m sick but I think we’ll like that led to some decisions which looking back on them Cardiff’s changed during that leg perfectly made us more money so one of the ones and I told I think before about is so we have this idea of tips in the product where I’m periodically like once every hour or something we would just pop dropped this tip into the time line of trees would like Hey do you use principle regularly maybe you should download our iOS app or use you’d soon protocol have you tried muting on apples and they might well ines well we basically created was promoted tweets yeah just we did a really bad job because at the time those with like all generated just like in our server and we do know we never treated them or anything that was just chili like we drop some text into the timeline yeah and if we had actually treated those used the real treats when we put them into the stream we probably would have been able to get like a lot more reach a lot more marketing and stuff like that but we never did because it never occurred to is the bike paths every now and then we talked about the fact that we were kind of building an ads had a system for displaying ounce right it’s with a full and meat we’ve we really on the knowledge with that’s I yeah I think ends I’m glad that we never did because I think it would have been it probably would have been a bad thing it’s which would very quickly stops it as well and in fact we did get to that point where eventually twitch a confirmed up that sort of terms and conditions of how you could use the system in the API and one of the things was like two knots fake tweets do not embed tweets in a timeline that aren’t real tweets and we were breaking that and we have she just carried on breaking it that for quite awhile before we will like it KFI maybe we should stop yeah but it would be a bit quicker we could have got something out of the house before you know we were sort of in so many ways we were ahead of Twitter because Switzer would just coping with scaling and deciding what he wants to be in it and how they wanted to do it that actually you know they were playing catch up to us and we could have stayed a heads and dumb things and sort of being a little bit sneaky era of in some ways and sort of made a bit more out of that’s I think yeah but then we never did just because it wasn’t that’s not what we were doing yeah I guess that’s part of it isn’t like you say it’s not a business it wasn’t a startup we were two people building websites and not with the criminal philosophy and you mentioned in the last episode quite a few times how you really weren’t advised well or **** it’s something that you you what’s coming up take advantage of quite a bit and maybe if I had gone that way and you thought about Simone could have gone very differently is that you say you worked quite ahead of the curve centric sure did do you think that you that there was a lack of advice that also was something that I tell people and I think that is interesting to know if that’s something that you agree with or disagree with I don’t think I ever thought until at least we talked about it that time I don’t think I’ve ever considered to be like the lack of it by so much as Armey I guess it is but I always started thinking about okay how do we make this big a what’s the next step could this thing when you know we joked about which requirements for them we also too I think also try to talk about like venture capital like how do we take funding and that was always the guy was how that conversation went was like how do we find people to give us money like how do we take funding how do we even find people to talk to you about that yeah I guess to some extent with sim time from the cause of that is that we didn’t have any business that yeah I was only ever really seeing this and plan of how do we progress this problem hiding week progresses it’s a really good web looking and I know exactly what you mean it’s like it’s it is kind of advice but also your it’s that also lack of knowledge or understanding or any kind of you know you thought about exactly like you say like the way that we need to make progress was filled more features hands you know like do more stuff and that was all progress and we brought you didn’t have knowledge or advice or or help with how do we progress the other side of things exactly dot and it’s just instead we also questions like well how do we do that yet interesting I don’t and I think obviously having move to like Silicon Valley and San Francisco now we have a much better idea on how yeah like in San Francisco anyone with an idea can get five hundred thousand dollars worth of funding for anything yeah you know you you suck to send an email to someone and I think where respect man I think it was just totally unclear how we would even think about doing that I guess also there is an element of of time and space and culture in the fact that we were in the UK and not only that but we were also in the north yeah you away from everything and there were other worlds that perhaps if we had been somewhere else like if we were in San Francisco at the time when we were doing it like if we really university in Francisco whatever that may be that would have progressed slightly differently or maybe not but I’m not saying I’m not sort of blaming it on things because it sounds like that’s what I’m doing and that’s not the case because I think part of it is also as we said we weren’t building a business nearly will building right side like it and that you saw philosophy at the same time we did entertain the ideas and thoughts and how do we grow how do we do better things but that was never a goal from the outset it wasn’t like this is where we start %HESITATION and yeah fundamentally we were building a website yeah I I think to some extent we have what is very often like the rest of us problem of a lot of venture capital a Silicon Valley companies which is that we had the products but we love and we bill when you worked and then we had no business yeah right we have customs we just had no business where I think a lot of hand of unsuccessful started kind of things they always like to all we gonna make it started to build this product and then like they do three rounds of prototypes and realized no one is ever going to buy this product yeah and then the business kind of crashes yeah the legacy of that is that the product lives on right like there was no company to fold was no company to fail it was no business there Ono if we don’t get funding by next week the website will go down it was like it has literally infinite runway like there is no there is no ends the website will carry on working as long as like I pay I put the small amount of money in the meter freestyle perfect right yeah exactly this that’s a really interesting point of them with another really thought of that like robot that is still running for that reason more final question then do you ever see anything changing the future truthful is there any new twenty seventeen plus updates coming a go on you if you beat the curve ten years ago because of now well that is interesting isn’t it because we have tried to rebuilt with a full at some point in the last like five years I would say items is never really come of anything because actually there is so much functionality and actually replicating a whole bunch of that in a way that wouldn’t alienate people is difficult %HESITATION and just by some kind of freak everything sort of works and carries on working and I think also part of it is that it’s with a fool despite the fact the people Whitley still use it it is an application from another era and so I think that’s the things that if you build if if you built a new app now that did what with the food does Twitter would in any Groot’s either no one would use it all twits would also probably tell you to get stuffed in snowbank it because it’s your replicating courts with the functionality you would like bands that sense of service that you are actually breaking the terms of service and it’s shaking your heads you are it’s no it’s it’s not against the clans of service I think this is one I yeah I’m like one of the things we talked about that Paul was about like what is it like to work towards a when the so much outside external media can yeah I think that is a very popular misconception which is there to do this it is not against the terms of service to build a twin to climb explicitly it is not against the terms of service I think the truth is is that I’m this is a problem but I think we’ve talked about the fall I’m where your Twitter releases new feature and then I now late so we have to mad scramble to be the first apt to a plate and geotagging old or whatever the poem is is this cleanse always going to lag behind my twins are being able to release them and there’s a mix of that and then a mix of audience in a mixed I’m by audience what it means that there was a time into it is history where the vast majority of users recently didn’t know they were using Twitter and what I mean by that is they were using TweetDeck well echo farm all Kubrick movie trailer was on the woman blackberry O. of nor the yeah because yeah tonight I use that was the whole point was not like they they couldn’t go to Twitter competent use the the was no Twitter official act at the time I’m the problem with that is that gives each of these plague developers a lot of power then arm and it gives them an ability to kind of go okay instead of just posting to Twitter now we’re also going to pose to our own proprietary twitch a clone I mean you can kinda suck start to siphon off users things like that sees McCullough did the other day %HESITATION season it was like a multi vet multi platform TweetDeck that sort of started to move people away from Switzerland at night you could post other things and it it sort of felt like which was very light kind of behind the scenes thing like see %HESITATION which is exactly that right I’m so in order to take control of the situation Twitter decided when I say this Saint with a decided ops I worked at the time we decided I guess okay quickly decided that the best way to contract this was to basically limit the number of users and and so if you were to build Switzer call today the maximum number of uses it could have would be about a hundred thousand yeah was lost Thomas so correction that yet either annoy you mean but also this things like yeah I guess you’re right I guess you’re right I wasn’t even thinking about that the limits that %HESITATION which is an interesting point but also I guess what it what I mean is that the API that’s what’s provides is that to make things that’s do something for want of a better word interesting with Twitter like that is that you use it to do something that %HESITATION commands to it so you don’t use it to build something thoughts is to it so well that we reserve as a substitute for Twitter dot com that’s not really what is that full and as a result nowadays especially with the you know back then when you talk about like them adding geo location so tweets they added it to the AP I before they really added it to Twitter dot com like it was it was like API for us developers could you stuff before Twitter implemented themselves in their own things now it’s the other way rounds right like things will be implemented for certainly there be things that are features on Twitter dot com and in the official apps that you call and get as a developer because you don’t need them if you %HESITATION commencing Switzer with interesting things you need them if you want to replicate all the functionality but that is not what’s with the one you so do I get what you mean it’s not against the rules it’s just that back then they were kind of encouraging its by the way that the AP I was was being designs and now it’s like that is not what you are encouraged to do and so as a result you are going to build what is essentially an inferior product if you started now buildings which have little calm because actually you’re going to struggle to even match parity or it in any way with the other things that Twitter make available themselves back then twitched for that you do stuff that you couldn’t do on Twitter dot com you know and and that’s the thing like image previous like meeting like all of those things now it’s with the does all of that stuff and it’s and it’s much always going to be much better than you do it from a third party right of is there anything else that we want said that we don’t talk about whom I would also say I’m contractually obligated not to work on a competing products holy that’s why you haven’t contributed sits with a photo call in the now seventy eight is the but it’s been an interesting like kind of trip as a you know out from earth can of an outside perspective listings that you guys talk about the thing that really kind of I think the way he is very much the case of well yeah but we love doing it bike that was very much it yeah I %HESITATION very and I think it’s something you can set the be so proud of regardless the outcome you know of Seattle was posed iffy regardless but I think it’s something to be very proud of Manila Sunda yeah yeah exit right actually thinking about it some of the business times like the stuff we have to do stuff about the business side like when we were working with someone that someone was the worst part of it yeah because it was stressful and no deadlines and stuff like I’m like how to read contracts which like we knew nothing about yeah all I kind of think where is just building the thing was that family or the most fun part of you that that was easy well I mean when you say it you say it was easy but like I we kind of touched on this before but like we really knew nothing yeah that’s true we were learning on our feet so much with all of that stuff %HESITATION and just kind of guessing guessing everything and making it up as we went along it’s interesting how challenging that made it but also how much we still managed to anyway are absolutely the best time to learn yeah definitely not my final question is completely unrelated it’s and that is because we talk a lot about video games owned almost left him as you know and so wouldn’t be complete without asking you what what severe games a you playing at the moment so that you are a bit of a game so I am crazy playing destiny to exclusively I’m I’m surprised yeah what what is the largest destiny pasty how I’m sure you you have to have a destiny poster my mentioning it well it’s not a poster it it’s on a piece of original art that yeah exactly yeah internally room we have little print of the trouble okay ends so I think I am a destiny before not predestined to are the played a lot of press in the while that’ll that was incredible yeah I’m yeah so that’s probably one of the best video games I’ve ever played yes I am what do you think forty thing it just need to convince the skinny I think so destiny to is in many ways the spiritual successor to test new law as it came out in two thousand forty let all the gains that we’ve left behind in two thousand seventy that’s interesting room and could be changed so considerably if you drink a lot but a lot of good transformation Islam purely like quality of life that I’m so now you don’t have to go to all the in between places now the way they’re going engrams work is much more succinct the way that you get new packages things like that old is much smoother much cleaner allows you to get to the top left my level much quicker all that kind of thing I think that there are aspect of it is very good I think the positive missing and has led to a little salty nuts and they that’s neat currency is that there is a lot less content now N. because destiny that we played two thousand seventeen hearts for grades three raids warrants multiple and game activities multiple things you could be doing at any time like as well as the regular like day to day grind and everything it’s slot harsh reality of the fact that you know it they’ve got all that deal see an expansion packs lined up for destiny to and so it’s like and instead of building a game that is the equivalent size and then adding DO scenes of bots it’s like you kind of gone back to the game as it was at the starts is what you’ve got you’ve got a sequel to that you know about a sequel to the game you are playing you know a week ago well two weeks ago whatever you’ve got a sequel to that original game which is really interesting and I guess yeah it’s just kind of like a because it is an actual sequel it’s knots another launch expansion pack or something like that like if you think about it would be this it’s an interesting obstetrician minorities to something like world of Warcraft if they ever made a world of Warcraft two more if they ever had made a world of Warcraft two you would have that same thing right well like you’ve got this huge worlds where they’ve just added an added and added an out it’s to the point where some of it is devoid of life because you don’t even need to go there anymore which would be that the alternative because if you keep adding and adding that’s gonna happen some of that content is going to become useless and then you make Waterval Croft too and you go back so like you know a tiny number of areas and all of that stuff is gone and it’s basically the same thing has happened here and I guess that’s the counts argument the bungee would give is like well if we just keep adding stuff then some of it is going to become pointless and that’s not you know it’s the it’s not it’s not useful to have a yeah but in general in general good it’s good good five small I mean I enjoyed it tremendously I think that the story is much better than the first game I think the game play is still some of the best FPS game click the links classic off my plus I’m gonna consequently I think of the like to shoot a gun at some aliens it is the best game that you can get something that’s not incredible feel maybe we should do they wish to destiny episode to then you can you can come on again is our resident experts we console about destiny destiny lot one pack yeah I can only result is a lot that I love very popular you cool well I am thank you Sir in in the meantime yeah yeah thank you very much orange alerting us %HESITATION esteem loves fun some really good inside actually had I think cool cool listening to it must say you’re much it thanks to having you’re very welcome have you that applies to you listening if you have any questions for the things that you think we should talk about then you know let us know where you can email us at show outs or to the FM you can tweet home runs do you still act up Easter eggs five three one five on Twitter what can you know shooting that’s ex five you know you work that like okay bathtub gin surely there isn’t there or there is already some running around and it’s five and the active it’s too active to scenic bump off I should like to be there is someone you are the house addicts you can that is the official stance and he stood by it yeah I see yes Sir go in sweet home at expo three will fight if you want to come or if you want to switch elsewhere out spokes left him and host can get hold of this and the Facebook page we have a Facebook page I know that we’ve been talking about Switzer but you do have a Facebook page as well where we play some stuff thank you for joining us I’ve been gelato I’ve been suffering and I can accept the offer nice time and Mike Capps infertility sequence you know the plan now I do not not one that wouldn’t just be like a real stretching another week it it could be like another episode will fall into your into your time I don’t really see it about things that matter like this it isn’t yeah live album yeah I liked it at that in to the and people who make it so it sounds like me the this is a really good point I think the longer legalism my last as part has run out back I was with him we have yeah I’ll be judged on the working